20:00 *GAVEL* 20:00 Jimmy Kaplowitz 20:00 Branden Robinson 20:00 John Goerzen 20:00 Ian Jackson 20:00 David Graham 20:00 sorry cdlu, got the gavel at the wrong place for your scripts 20:01 one more? going once? 20:01 CosmicRay, it's alright. 20:01 Hm. 20:01 Joey: are you here? 20:01 Joey, Bdale, Bruce, Mako 20:01 I /msg'd him, but he's not in channel 20:01 cdlu: can you put my Treasurer's report for December 2005 in the agenda? 20:01 Hydroxide, that the one I Just received? 20:01 cdlu: I emailed it to board@ and -private a couple of hours ago 20:01 Hydroxide, will do 20:01 ok 20:01 cdlu: thanks 20:02 well, suck 20:02 this stinks. one short of quorum. 20:02 how long do we wait to be quorate? 20:02 Overfiend, if you know anyone not here you can reach by phone, get on the horn :) 20:02 where's bruce? 20:02 and bdale? 20:02 do we have phone numbers for Joey, Bdale, and Bruce? 20:02 I don't have ph #s for any of them 20:02 just Mako 20:02 who already sent regrets 20:02 me neither, and mako is in a meeting 20:02 since I have to go by around 1925 UTC, I'd say we start talking, as well as contacting them, and then vote once we have quorum 20:03 (if we have it) 20:03 I'm here 20:03 aha! 20:03 bdale! 20:03 quorum! 20:03 QUORUM! 20:03 OK! 20:03 just got off a phone meeting, sorry to be a couple minutes late 20:03 thanks, bdale 20:03 and there was much rejoicing 20:03 Let's start with the items that effect Jimmy since he has to run, unless there's objection. 20:03 no objection here 20:03 [item 6, tax filing/bookkeeping status] Jimmy/Branden, you have the floor. 20:03 ok. I've got about 45 mins max, fwiw. 20:03 CR, no objection. Will take me a minute to get it into the agenda. 20:04 cdlu: yeah that's why I started with #6 20:04 Bdale Garbee, for the record 20:04 ok 20:04 Hydroxide: want me to give it? 20:04 Overfiend: go ahead 20:04 okay 20:04 ok, it's posted. 20:04 basically MBS needs 2 things from us to do our 2006 taxes 20:05 Overfiend: 2005, surely? 20:05 1) a copy of our 2006 annual statement from Ameriprise née American Express Financial Advisors 20:05 (yes, 2006) 20:05 er 20:05 you said the right year 20:05 I cannot. 20:05 taxes filed in 2006 for year 2005 20:05 2) pending questions answered that they sent a while back but which Jimmy and I didn't get to 20:05 I have 1), just need to fax it over to them 20:05 Why oh why oh why are we faffing with this in the meeting ? 20:06 but they already have all our info for the FirstIB account 20:06 Why couldn't this have been typed up in advance so we don't have to sit here and wait while Branden types it in ?? 20:06 Diziet: if you'd read your mail, you'd realize it already had been 20:06 Diziet: that's a complaint that would also be useful to move outside the meeting if you are trying not to add delays 20:06 Diziet, let him talk. You're just wasting time with your meaningless bitching. 20:06 anyway, I'll shut up now. Jimmy, let's you and me make sure we take care of 1) and 2) by next month's meeting. 20:06 Taxes for NGOs are due May 15 20:07 anything needed from the board? 20:07 Overfiend: do we need to do anything about tax year 2004 at this point? 20:07 CosmicRay: I think some of the questions in 2) pertained to FY2004 20:07 bdale: I don't think so 20:07 CosmicRay: but some of the questions, I didn't understand. I think this will take a phone call. 20:08 ok. any further discussion on the tax filing/bookkeeping status? 20:08 So I'll set aside a block of time for that., 20:08 CosmicRay: tax year 2004 issues are totally separate from the may 15 deadline, so we can worry about the 2005 taxes first 20:08 I've got more papers than Jimmy does, so it's probably better for me to do it 20:08 cr: Is it going to be filed on time this year ? 20:08 Diziet: we are intending to file the 2005 tax forms on time this year 20:08 And there is no reason you can see at the moment that we wouldn't make that deadline ? 20:09 Diziet: not that I can see, no. 20:09 Good. Thanks. 20:09 of course there is, Jimmy or I could be struck dead on the spot 20:09 let's move on? 20:09 please 20:09 we've explained what we understand to be needed and have committed to do it before next month's meeting. 20:09 thank you 20:09 ok. we also have this on our agenda: 20:09 [item 6, big expenditure] Branden, you have the floor 20:09 I guess that involves Jimmy as well. 20:09 yeah, this actually makes my hair grayer than the taxes 20:10 stockholm is here to pitch in, but let me summarize 20:10 just a moment,w ife 20:10 * Hydroxide would also like to make sure we get to discuss (no vote needed) the potential new online donation and payment services before 1925 UTC when he must leave 20:10 ok back 20:10 Overfiend: i have a writeup that i can paste 20:10 stockholm: yeah, okay, do that 20:10 (!) slef [ENoPulsar@50-30-55-213.adsl.realpoptel.net] has joined #spi 20:10 (!) slef is sirc user on #spi #dplteam2006 at server kinetic.oftc.net 20:10 stockholm: and thanks :) 20:10 e intending to file the 2005 tax forms on time this year 20:10 duh 20:10 Hydroxide: noted, thanks. 20:10 Debconf this year has again a budget of about 160kUS. We will stay at 20:10 a bigger, government owned vacational facility with auditoriums etc. 20:10 we estimate to pay between 50-60kUS for the accommodation and food, 20:10 depending on how many we are going to be. 20:10 The payment plan specifies several downpayments and a caution for 20:10 us. The fist downpayment of 10$ was payed in december from last year's 20:10 stockholm: we already have *one* Diziet... :-) 20:10 lefovers, the next (first big) downpayment is due tomorrow and will be 20:11 29kUS. 20:11 It wont matter if we are a week or two late. But by then we wont have 20:11 (potential new online donation and payment services> Is there a mail about that ? I didn't see one with any details we should read up on, just something saying we would discuss it.) 20:11 received the money from the big sponsors yet. Their financial 20:11 devisions work in a way that it takes about 45days for money to be 20:11 released to the beneficior. That is too late. 20:11 So i request that SPI would extend us the needed 29k for the time 20:11 beeing. Incoming payments from IBM (10k) and NetApp (45k) are due "soon". 20:11 stockholm: how sure are we that those payments will actually materialize? 20:11 stockholm: should that really say "10$"? 20:12 I don't think we can send you $29K just to your bank account. But we might see our way to paying the bills, if we know that the donations are actually coming. 20:12 the first down payment? 20:12 * Hydroxide notes that we would have to get the funds from the Ameriprise account, since the FirstIB account currently has under $29k in it 20:12 10% (c: 20:12 So we would need something in writing from IBM and/or NetApp. 20:12 well, NetApp alone. 20:12 Err, yes. 20:12 IBM alone isn't enough, and NetApp alone is plenty. 20:12 CosmicRay: well, i count on it. netapp gave us a costy file server already, and has supported debconf in the psat 20:12 uhhhh 20:12 i know they are sincere 20:12 Then we treat it not as a loan but as a donation by NetApp for Debconf which we disburse in the normal way. 20:12 Diziet: (re donations/payments): no, there wasn't a mail with the info. but we don't need a vote. what I'll be doing is giving a very very brief summary, asking for positive/negative comments in the logs or via email within a few days, and then I'll ask 20:13 s/ask/make a decision/ 20:13 hy: OK. Can you type up your summary in an xclipboard or something ? :-) 20:13 Hydroxide: that sounds reasonable. 20:13 stockholm: timing on the HP donation is, I presume, way to late for this round? 20:13 CosmicRay: so i am betting debconf on their reliability, to some degree. 20:13 stockholm: Yes, but I think we should see an actual piece of paper from NetApp. Or an email if that's all you've got. 20:13 Diziet: I'll start that, sure 20:13 stockholm mailed me on Sunday saying he needed $29k by today 20:13 bdale: yes, the payment might have started the 45 day periode last week 20:13 ok 20:14 * bdale has no control over financial transaction processes 20:14 Diziet: sure, i have that here. 20:14 should i bounce it somewhere or paste it? 20:14 stockholm: these payments...are they refundable? 20:14 For $29K I think we need to have Jimmy or Branden phone up NetApp and just confirm that this is all going to happen and is all right. 20:14 Overfiend: refundable? 20:14 If, God forbid, we should have to cancel debconf, will we get any of our money back? 20:14 Or I can do the confirmation if Jimmy or Branden are too buisy. 20:14 as a general comment, it's unfortunate that we've made a commitment to a budget and a payment schedule before having the donations and their delivery schedules solid, but I know how that goes 20:15 Diziet: i have tried to reach netapp. it is really hard to get the responsible person on the phone. 20:15 Diziet: but i can try to arrange something 20:15 hard to get them on the phone> That's not a good sign. 20:15 Overfiend: almost never are such payments completely refundable, in my experience 20:15 this feels really shaky to me, but I trust Diziet enough to be a hardass on this 20:15 bdale: yeah, I figured 20:15 Overfiend: i am not sure. if debconf goes belly up we have bigger problems then 29k 20:15 stockholm: I am just getting bad vibes from this situation 20:15 refundable> We need to confirm with NetApp that the money is a donation and that it's not conditional on anything. 20:16 yeah, if we can't recover our expenditures, our donors can't either 20:16 Where `We' = SPI officers, not you, I'm afraid. Since it's our arses that are on the line. 20:16 Diziet: heh, hard to get on the phone -> busy. 20:16 Diziet: agreed 20:16 stockholm: more than the phone, what we need is some sort of written promise 20:16 I presume you have an actual invoice from the hotel ? Is it just that one invoice that needs to be covered ? 20:16 stockholm: an email will probably do 20:16 Written promise by email is good, yes. 20:17 Diziet: yes, we have that. 20:17 ok. Do we have an agreement on how to proceed then? 20:17 But if it's just an email then I would want to phone up to confirm. 20:17 we do? 20:17 well, hell 20:17 Diziet: yeah, point 20:17 we have a cost-estimate form the hotel. 20:17 Can you forward that email to spi-board and someone from the board will phone up NetApp to double-check. 20:17 but if we *have* an email from NetApp saying "yes, we will give you $45k on or about 2006-04-01" or whatever, then that's great 20:17 stockholm: A _cost-estimate_ ?? 20:17 I thought stockholm was doing business on a wink and a nod :) 20:17 rememer that we dont know how expensive it will be since we dont know how many people we are going to host 20:17 Overfiend: the move of the event from July to May has an impact on how long before the event money has to be asked for and becomes available, to the extent that this is "only" a scheduling race condition I wouldn't be too worried. 20:17 We're not giving out any money based on a `cost estimate' ! 20:18 we're not? 20:18 No, we need an actual invoice. 20:18 Diziet: first: this is mexico. 20:18 Diziet: we cant have final numbers as the number of participants is still l changing. 20:18 Diziet: there's no way we're going to get anything better than a lower bound 20:18 Diziet: that isn't how reserving a venue for an event works 20:18 Diziet: second: this is how it is done. 20:18 Diziet: the hotel will always nail you with extra charges at the end 20:18 Well, an invoice for the deposit. 20:18 Also, who is entering into a contract here ? 20:19 yes, an invoice or a copy of a contract stating the payment terms 20:19 Can't you pay an amount to secure $N rooms to be confirmed by $DATE? 20:19 I mean, the contract with the hotel. 20:19 um, sorry to interrupt, but Hydroxide has only 7 more minutes 20:19 Diziet: SPI, I guess. 20:19 Diziet: the one entering into a contract is gunnar wolf 20:19 Given that Jimmy has only a few more minutes here, and we will cease to be quorate after that, can you take this to email, Diziet? 20:19 slef: thats what this is about. 20:19 stockholm: Right, what, personally ? OK. 20:19 yack, so we're sending $29k to a private individual? 20:19 stockholm: I presume he already has a contract, or there wouldn't be a payment due? 20:19 (with any surplus to be set against rooms taken.) 20:19 I mean, I know Gunnar and trust him... 20:19 No, we're going to send it to the hotel. 20:19 Diziet: yes, that is how it works in mexico 20:19 So we need the contract etc. from the hotel. 20:20 bdale: as far as i know he siged something, yes 20:20 ok, then we'd like to see a copy of that something 20:20 personally> I wouldn't put my financial arse on the line like Gunnar is apparently doing. But that's his risk. 20:20 stockholm: we really need him personally involved in this, then 20:20 Diziet: you want to send the money to the hotel directly? 20:20 stockholm: Yes, absolutely. 20:20 let's come back to this in 5 minutes 20:20 and let Jimmy do his thing 20:20 I, too, know Gunnar and am inclined to trust he's doing the right thing, but sending a $29k check from SPI to Mexico for this requires due process 20:20 OK 20:20 CosmicRay: motion to shelve this for a few minutes 20:21 Let's have Jimmy's online thingum. 20:21 Diziet: why? 20:21 Overfiend: yes, let's move on. 20:21 (!) gwolf [~gwolf@dsl-200-78-32-154.prod-infinitum.com.mx] has joined #spi 20:21 (!) gwolf is gaim on #spi at server testlink1.oftc.net 20:21 stockholm, because the treasurer needs to leave in 5 minutes and has something we need to address 20:21 stockholm: please hold on for a few minutes 20:21 Jimmy, you had an online payment item to discuss? 20:21 stockholm: Tell you in a few mins ... 20:21 we'll get right back to it 20:21 * gwolf greets 20:21 yeah 20:21 ok 20:21 I'm basically going to have to paste and run 20:21 Right. 20:21 gwolf: welcome -- we'll need you in a few minutes :) 20:21 I'll read the logs and email feedback 20:21 OK 20:21 Go ahead. 20:21 Our online donation system, Network for Good, is effective for many credit card 20:21 holders with US billing addresses, but international donors cannot use it. 20:21 Also, the site requires people to sign up for a Network for Good account, which 20:21 is a deterrent to donation. An alternative system, www.clickandpledge.com, 20:21 llooks to be a good solution. It only takes 4.75% of the donation (not much more 20:21 than NfG) for most types of cards, but doesn't require an account, allows some 20:21 customization of the look-and-feel, and supports international donors. The 20:21 signup looks easy, and based on extensive searches online and reviews of 20:21 ddonation service comparisons, it looks like it doesn't have the same 20:22 capriciousness or fraud problems as PayPal does. Please review the site, discuss a bit at this meeting, and/or email feedback to board@ or treasurer@ or -privatee or -general within the next two or three days. I will review it and then decide to sign up or not. 20:22 data point: Network for Good takes 3% of donations 20:22 Also, we need a way to pay non-US people in non-US currency. For many common 20:22 cAlso, we need a way to pay non-US people in non-US currency. For many common 20:22 cases we can handle this with XEtrade (https://www.xe.com/fx/). They are a 20:22 currency conversion and international payment service with a really good 20:22 reputation, and which is also recommended from personal experience by Josh 20:22 BBerkus. We do need to figure out a "credit reference" such a bank account 20:22 manager for the application, but it's pretty easy otherwise. Please give 20:22 feedback on this too. 20:22 Thanks Hydroxide. 20:22 why not paypal? 20:22 I think pursuing both is a good idea. 20:22 cdlu: long story 20:22 cdlu: theft 20:22 Hydroxide: both look like a good idea 20:22 paypal-- 20:22 cdlu: PayPal are 20:23 should we try to resurrect the email voting for Jimmy's proposals? 20:23 paypal bad 20:23 (btw, we can still continue using Network for Good as a slightly preferred option, for US donors who don't mind signing up for an account and who want to minimize processing costs) 20:23 Overfiend: I don't think this needs a vote, unless the Board disagrees 20:23 As long as we document the cut each processor is taking, I think it's good to let our donors decide 20:23 ov: We don't need to. Jimmy is perfectly entitled to go ahead and do it on his own authority. 20:23 Overfiend: I'm just asking for feedback in the logs and via email in the next two or three days. 20:23 Diziet: okay. 20:23 Overfiend: I would say that Jimmy could begin using these services under his authority as treasurer 20:23 Hydroxide, one (more) question... 20:23 Of course he should keep us informed and get our input, as he is doing. 20:23 understood. 20:23 cdlu: go ahead 20:23 Hydroxide, why limit it? Sign up for all such services. 20:23 "To donate, you have the following 18 options: " 20:24 It definitely sounds like he's done is homework, which is excellent, and I'll take a look at these sites (and read the Ts&Cs). 20:24 Hydroxide: in a nutshell, I trust ya, man. :) I say go for it. I haven't heard of either of these organizations, but they're not PayPal, and that seems to count for something. 20:24 cdlu: click and pledge handles pretty much all cases we'd want for electronic donations ... you don't need to be a "click and pledge account holder" or anything as with paypal 20:24 the only reason to no do that, cdlu, is if one of the services is perceived as putting our accounts at risk 20:24 cdlu: unfortunately, using an untrustworthy donation service can cause financial/liability issues 20:24 management overhead 20:24 okay 20:24 slef: that too 20:24 * cdlu groks all the various answers 20:25 In particular, a bad donation service can result in us suddenly having much less money than we thought, and can result in donations going lost. 20:25 ok, I'm heading out now ... I look forward to hearing the responses 20:25 Thanks. 20:25 with that... bye 20:25 ok, thanks hy 20:25 Hydroxide: thanks and good luck with class :) 20:25 Anywone else want to say anything about that at this point ? Or we can take it to email. 20:25 Diziet: donation money shouldn't be counted upon until it's got to a trusted bank account. 20:25 and with that we are no longer quorate, but we can probably iron out the remaining debconf situation at this point. 20:25 Diziet, we can put it right to the lists 20:25 we didn't even take any votes... 20:25 slef: But they might suddenly demand it back (and depending on contract they could get it too). 20:26 CosmicRay, I know it's not in the spirit of it, but I believe the letter of our constitution only requires that we be quorate at some point during the meeting. 20:26 so technically we didn't need quorum, except to give cdlu another meeting to (not) minute >;-) 20:26 I don't think we need a vote on the debconf thing. 20:26 Diziet: aye, T&Cs&fine tooth comb :-( 20:26 CosmicRay: so, big DC expenditure is back off the shelf? 20:27 gwolf is here now to answer additional questions 20:27 okay 20:27 So, let me answer stockholm's question as to why we want to pay the hotel directly. 20:27 wait, please 20:27 Overfiend: I think it is reasonable to discuss it now 20:27 Diziet, "receipt" :) 20:27 let's ask gwolf the questions we had 20:27 * gwolf faces the channel 20:27 Overfiend: since all the interested parties are here 20:27 gwolf: have you entered into a contract with anyone regarding DC lodgings? 20:27 We (the SPI board) are responsible for making sure that SPI's funds, which may only be used for US-gov-approved charitable purposes, are only used that way. 20:27 Overfiend: yes 20:28 So we need to actually know ourselves where the money is going - and know it better than `we gave it to this guy some of us know and trust'. 20:28 gwolf: okay. Are you contractually bound to personally make the payments they expect? 20:28 Diziet: quite right. 20:28 "personally" vs "spi makes one", i guess 20:28 gwolf: also, could you provide board@spi-inc.org with an English translation of the contract? Actually, the Spanish original might suffice, maybe Greg Pomerantz's law firm can handle translating it -- I don't know. 20:29 Overfiend: Well, not personally, I think... But I am the responsable person who signed the contract, and the invoices have been made in my wife's name (as she is the financial person in charge of Debconf :) ) 20:29 You've got invoices from the hotel ? 20:29 Excellent. That's what we need. 20:29 Overfiend: ok. For when? 20:29 okay...is that Sra. Gutiérrez? 20:29 They're on paper, I guess ? 20:29 Overfiend: Sra. Gabriela Manjarrez Gutiérrez 20:29 Gutiérrez is the second family name 20:29 So who at our end is going to handle all of this double-checking and what have you ? 20:30 Diziet: Yes, on paper 20:30 gwolf: okay. stockholm says the .mx government needs this money as soon as possible, so the sooner you can get us this contractual info, the better 20:30 But we also have the document in digital format 20:30 gwolf: ooh, excellent 20:30 Ok, I understand 20:30 Overfiend: try to find a translator from -i18n or -l10n-spanish if needed. 20:30 I'll send you _now_ the document 20:30 gwolf: please send board@spi-inc.org that document, ... right 20:30 and will translate as soon as possible 20:30 That's great. 20:30 I don't care if it's in Spanish, we will want our lawyer to see the actual original 20:30 gwolf: *many* thanks 20:30 Overfiend: *more* thanks ;-) 20:31 cool 20:31 heh 20:31 gwolf: That's great. On the other end, what do you have in the way of assurance from NetApp that this donation is actually going to happen ? 20:31 so is this resolved, aside from SPI authorising it if everything works out? 20:31 gwolf: do you have an account number or something? 20:31 We want to make sure ourselves to avoid spending money that's going to evaporate. 20:31 gwolf: for this arrangement with the hotel? 20:31 the HP donation is a certainty, just will be a while getting there, fwiw 20:31 Overfiend: Wait a minute on this 20:31 gwolf: okay 20:31 ov: We can sort that out with the hotel by phone if necessary. 20:31 bdale: What's the amount of that one ? 20:31 Diziet: That's a question for stockholm :) 20:31 Diziet: I just figure if we have an account number and use that, they probably don't care who pays as long as they get the money 20:32 Diziet: i have this mail that says "45k? sure!" and a whole bunch of email of how they plan to use the payment system etc 20:32 overfiend: Quite. 20:32 Overfiend: When would the transfer be initiated? 20:32 But we have to make sure to attach the right reference numbers and stuff to avoid some tedious accounting screwup :-). 20:32 gwolf: I can't make any promises at this point. The SPI Board and its counsel have to wrangle over it. 20:32 Diziet: 50k 20:32 Diziet: yes 20:32 stockholm: That's great. Can you forward those to board@ ? 20:33 Diziet: yeah, i can 20:33 ok. We need to pay _really_ soon, so the earlier the better. Please. :) 20:33 Someone from SPI should phone them up and confirm that this is (a) a genuine authorised email from NetApp or HP and (b) that this donation isn't now conditional because we're going to pay the hotel now. 20:33 Diziet: i can also forward you the invoice we sent to IBM (10k) 20:33 The contract is the last part of the Oaxtepec quote. 20:33 stockholm: Right, please do. 20:33 which is due sooner. 20:33 and then spi still has 13k from last year 20:33 which adds allmost up to those 19k 20:33 mail sent. 20:33 29k 20:34 also, note that HP will directly cover the travel expenses of any HP employees that attend, so the effective donation level is higher 20:34 (!) jvw [jeroen@220pc220.sshunet.nl] has joined #spi 20:34 (!) jvw is Jeroen van Wolffelaar on #spi #dplteam2006 #debian-kernel #debian-security #debian-mirrors #debian-cd #debian-tech #debian-bugs #debian-qa #debian-ftp #debian-webapps #debian-uk #debian-release #debian-lists #debian-devel #debian-apache at server quasar.oftc.net 20:34 it is just a gap of 29-23 20:34 Yes, we can give you your $13K of surplus from last year without being sure of the incoming donations, I think. 20:34 Would it be desirable to spend $13k our of the SPI checking account now for a wire transfer to the hotel using the account number? 20:34 (none of them should have asked for travel subsidies, so this does not affect the budget amount) 20:35 Would that be at all helpful to stave off the .mx government canceling our reservation? 20:35 Overfiend: For bureaucratic reasons I'd rather not delve into, it would be _much_ better if you wired it to our account 20:35 We'd better make a single payment 20:35 gwolf: I'm really not happy with that. Can you explain why it's needed ? 20:35 gwolf: that's riskier for SPI from a legal standpoint 20:35 otherwise, there would be a lot to explain 20:35 (to your account, I mean) 20:35 ugh 20:36 gwolf: maybe we should just wait until we have the full $29k 20:36 The thing is we will get an invoice on my wife's name 20:36 Yes, but companies don't care who pays the invoice. 20:36 surely we could do the full $29k 20:36 ...And we have to justify (to the Mexican taxes authority) how we got and how we spent that money. 20:36 and they would be OK with it 20:36 gwolf, so wouldnt it be easier if that money never reaches your hands? 20:36 gwolf: so isn't it better if the money never passes throu...what cdlu said 20:36 gwolf: And if you don't touch the money, then surely that's better ? 20:37 maybe the .mx government is afraid it's some kind of shadow transaction, i.e. money laundering 20:37 cr: We should only spend the full $29K when we are sure that Debconf is solvent. Otherwise we're effectively risking our other projects' funds. 20:37 if the contract is in her name, the money pretty much needs to flow through her or it looks weird to the .mx govt, I suspect 20:37 cdlu, Overfiend, Diziet: Would not work... Oaxtepec wants a single payment, a single invoice 20:37